BCC regurge

[razeraze]

Again the oldest snake recorded so far lived to be 40 with out a feeding schedule. Until I get solid proof on what levels of fat are unhealthy and when snakes start to metabolize their own organs from lack of food, I am not changing my schedule. I would rather listen to the zoos and herpetologists I trust than people I do not know on a forum.

Gus here is the experiment:
Rattlesnakes Grow While Starving | LiveScience
Discovery Channel :: News - Animals :: Starving Snakes Eat Their Hearts Out
How Snakes Survive Starvation

Now these snakes went 5 months with out food, Charger has gone 3 living on her healthy amount of fat stores. They do not explain exactly what weeks or months the organ metabolizing started.

I know in humans tissue breakdown can happen between 4-40 days of starvation. I have not been able to find an exact time for this body reaction. Studies on bears have been done also. The truth remains we do not know a clear line between malnutrition and obesity in reptiles, we barely understand it in people. So until I get proof i am going to feed animals (even my cat) when they are hungry.

[trendkill]

What I don't see mentioned there is the order in which what recourses were broken down. But any educated guess would say that stored fat would go first and then muscle tissue, before internal tissues or organs. So in most cases you should be able to look at a snake and know that it's starving. I don't think these well-evolved animals are going to start "eating their hearts out" before they use up stored fat and start appearing really thin. My opinion would be that a boa with a healthy layer of fat tissue (not an excessive layer) is at no risk of organ metabolization. Paranoia about such a thing shouldn't arise until the animal is clearly becoming too thin. And so a lot of excess fat is unnessessary, and can be as dangerous to the reptile as being too thin, seeing as how it can damage internal organs as well.

[razeraze]

Can someone please tell me what an excess of fat is for a large constrictor preferably in a BMI (body mass index) as it is measured with humans. Again of all the people I have asked snakes 8-10 feet weigh anywhere between 25-60lbs. But even this is just a statistic not proof of a healthy weight and fat store.

[trendkill]

As far as I know, there is no such BMI for snakes. So you have to look to signs of obesity in other animals. Any animal with excess body fat that appears as more bulge than any healthy wild animal in it's prime would carry is considered overweight or obese. Why you think the same shouldn't be applied to reptiles, I don't understand.

[razeraze]

Well I know all monitors and crocs store their fat in their tails so many of the carnivores (insectivores tend to be much thinner) can have huge tails in the wild. Many appear obese and are 20+ years old. I have seen many pictures of wild monitors and crocs that look obese but are perfectly healthy, so observation is not everything. Monitors are snakes closest relatives so that would be my best example
lizard: Komodo dragon --#$!Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Just google komodo dragon images and you will see many with fat roles in their tales up near their hips, and huge stomachs. Monitors can eat 80% of their weight in one meal, snakes can eat over 100% off their weight in one meal. Why so they can fast if need be.

[trendkill]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Monitors are snakes closest relatives so that would be my best example.

"Using statistical methods to compare differences in the sequences of two genes—RAG1 and C-mos—among these species, the researchers demonstrated that monitor lizards are not directly related to snakes. Rather, monitors, such as Indonesia's fast-moving predatory Komodo dragon (Varanus komodoensis), are closely related to other groups—including the glass lizards of Europe and North America—not believed to be snake relatives. The findings were recently published online in the science journal Biology Letters. " -National Geographic News

Originally Posted by razeraze

Just google komodo dragon images and you will see many with fat roles in their tales up near their hips, and huge stomachs.

Because of hibernation behavoirs (not seen in boas or pythons) during which a high level of fat storage is necessary (I just did my own research.. I never knew komodos hibernate). Same apparantly applies to monitors as well.

"As with many animals, food availability varies seasonally, especially in areas subject to regular flooding or droughts. It has been my impression, knowing what I do about the areas in which savannahs live as well as learning about them in captivity, that they are gorge feeders. That is, gorge when food is available to build up energy stores to get them through periods of decreased food availability.

Many species of monitors do this, and this is why I mentioned that examining how diet varies seasonally for various monitor species could be important. In addition, some species have periods of inactivity (essentially hibernation of sorts), so they may gorge in anticipation of such activity (or inactivity, if you will). Savannah monitors and white-throats (V. albigularis) are two such species where at least some populations may show such behavior.

Obesity in savannahs seems to be caused by the same behavior that causes much of the obesity in other captive animals: overfeeding by the keeper. This seems to be a particular problem when the animal in question acts like it is still hungry even though it has taken in sufficient amounts for its age, health and physical status. This appears to be what happens with savannahs in captivity - their gorge behavior is interpreted as actual hunger, and so the animal is fed based on this behavior, rather than overall physical appearance." - Michael Balsai

[razeraze]

Here I will trade you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/science/22venom.html

Monitors and snakes come from a common ancestor so as of right now until further DNA tests can be done on other lizards, monitors are the closest relative to snakes.

Seasonal fasting is in many reptiles, again something my boa demonstrates every year, for what ever reason. So when times are good (spring until fall) she will gorge her self just like monitors. Then she will fast, it is perfectly natural and until I can get proof about obesity and a BMI I will have to go on the evidence I have.

Obesity in savs is directly related to exercise and prey offered. Feeding savs rodents is like feeding yourself mcdonalds every day. This is another reason I am looking into more birds for my snakes. A strict mammal diet is not always natural and a variety is best. Again obesity is determined by exercise, amount of food and type of food and in my opinion limiting food should be the last way to fix this problem. A problem we can not fully understand with out a BMI.

[Special_Ed]

This thread has a personal tone to it that I didn't pick up on when I first started posting.. none of my posts were meant to take sides or prove anyone right or wrong.. only give of my experience and opinion.
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Yes, I do believe their are good, better and best ways to raise boas! .. only these are slightly grey areas depending upon our own personal experiences and goals.. And I do believe that incorrect husbandry and feeding causes short term problems and long term issues as well.
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I will make one subjective assessment regarding Raze's big boa. That is this.. from what I've seen and read I don't see why he should be especially singled out for how he's keeping and raising it or why he should have to defend his practices with the snake. He's outspoken and some of what he says doesn't make a lot of sense to me from my experience... but the snake looks ok to me.
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PLEASE don't paste my comments and drag me into some further discussion/debate. I'm not here for that..
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Have fun, be safe.

[razeraze]

Thanks Gus.

I started this thread hoping to discuss seasonal fasting and factors, not to defend my husbandry. It turns out many posts where I bring up discussions result in personal attacks And I am sorry this one turned into it. I think there is much to learn about locality, temps and seasons that may directly affect appetite. I hope you read the links I provided; and thanks for your insight. I believe experience can be just as valuable as research and you have a ton to offer in both categories.

I would also like to say thank you to trendkill, The genetic information you stated, I have found the source and posted on a forum Dr.Fry frequently visits. Hopefully they can help clear that information up.


So much to learn so little time

[trendkill]

Gus.. we all appreciate your opinions. I think we all just like to debate here, whether we admit it or not. Don't worry so much about getting involved.. things aren't taken as personally as it appears. I don't think any of us are very sensitive here.

I don't intentionally single you out raze.. though you're challenging to argue with and things easily go deeper than they would with lesser educated (on the subject matter, not in general!) people. But honestly I'd question the feeding practices of any big boa that looks too big to me. Anyway, you've done a lot of good for your adopted reptiles and that can't go unappreciated.