Natural vs Suitable

[CraigC]

Ok, my thoughts are set in the overall ecosystem vs microcosyms. The prelude to this discussion is, if what is talked about makes you angry, back away and use your head. There are those that try to mimic an organisms natural environment, but I believe that it can't be duplicated 24/7/365.

Let's look at a basic necessity, water. Our reptiles need it for existance! I think we can all agree on that. But, how a reptile gets its supply can very dramatically. What do you consider is best for your herp? Most of us use tap water or filtered tap water. RO water may be great for keeping mineral build up off of cage walls, but does it provide the necessary trace elements our charges require? Do we consider the PH level of water in our captives natural environment? Or expect them to adapt to what we provide? How about algea content, protozoan content, parasite content?

I promote the philosopy that we try to give our charges the best habitat we can, based on our ability to do so! If we look at it any other way, we should not keep reptiles, period.

My idea is that we can not provide the exact environment our reptiles require, but provide a suitable environment to sustain them for a long lived life!

How we achieve that environment is based in the simple fact of our situations. I live in an area that is similar to our emeralds natural conditions. My husbandry reflects this. However, folks wanting to keep emeralds in a location that is either to dry or has seasonal differences from the canopy, rain forest environment they are used to, find that they have to work harder to achieve the same conditions. In other words, what works for us may not work for you.

Let us discuss this in a mature fashion and not resort to belittleing others or consider our opinions "carved in stone". A very wise person that I look up to, said that you can not study something without changing it. There are no unbiased studies, no matter how we may believe otherwise.

Craig

[mpgt]

My thoughts exactly. Well said.

[Masahiko]

well said. i tend to agree with you completely. more to come later

edit: i swear i didnt see mpgt's response "well said" but I thought the exact same thing.

[BrianV]

definately well said my friend for some reason i m too tired to completely understand u now but i may have to reread tomorrow but for now bed time

[mpgt]

I hope this doesn't turn into a debate. Everyone has a right to an opinion, even if they're all different. As long as people are not straight up abusing or neglecting their animals, I think different approaches should be tolerated. I see great value in trying to simulate the natural environment. For one, the pursuit would be educational. At the same time though, I agree with Craig.

One thing that bothers me though: my hero Steve Irwin had a large retic. I saw a show once where it had trouble shedding in a rather large enclosure. I can't say for sure, but I suspect it's hard to maintain ideal humidity levels in such a large enclosure.

[razeraze]

The large retic had trouble because there were not enough stones and branches for it to rub on. Many retics will shed in pieces and as they get bigger a large pond would help. Al Baldogo and Jim Gaspar have confirmed shedding often comes off in pieces. My retic soaks often and when she is large enough she will get a pond to soak in.

As far as natural cages and ph balance. How we raise them from the start will greatly affect how they deal with bacteria infested water or varying PH levels. Having had a large 120 gallon pond in my apartment I can tell you fecal matter is a constant problem. Ways to solve this is by using a canister filter behind a water lead so no huge feces can clog the filter. You also need a bio, chemical, mechanical filter for best results. Then use a pond skimmer to remove large feces.
Story time. An alligator who had been raised in a basement was released into the wild. It killed much of the natural population because it had developed an immunity to it's own feces which was spreading infections to the natural alligators. Luckily the Chicago herp society filled me in on this incident so I can explain further to people how we affect the chemical make up of these animals by putting them in captivity.

I use drift wood out of the Mississippi river and I do not dis infect it. I simply soak the wood to drown the bugs in it and let it dry out. Why? Because I know for a healthy immune system some bacteria has to be present.

Bottom line we can not replicate "ideal" conditions for any animal with out studying it's natural habitat. So Giving the animal options it has in the wild like; soaking bowls, climbing branches, higher and lower surface temps as well as a properly set up large enclosure will help solve problems we can't see or don't yet understand.

Chemicals in tap water or filtered water is done by the same methods in the wild. Things like charcoal, chlorine and lime are found in nature and help clean water in nature. A canister filter is just easier than using duckweed, stones and a water pump. Now I do not have soil in my snake cages because they do not have the legs to mix it up constantly. Therefore I would have to do it manually or put in a ton of insects and small creatures with is just not worth the risk of an escape infestation into my apartment. My monitors all have dirt and sand and peat moss. They mix it up so good bacteria can overwhelm the bad (like a septic system). I occasionally shovel it up to keep there urine and fecal bacteria (what ever I can't scoop out) buried under 10-20 inches of good dirt. I am certain the dirt has protozoa and other bacteria that could be harmful if these animals were from a long line of CBB monitors never exposed to dirt. Luckily they are not and most monitors with out dirt live short lives.

If you are going to study your animals I suggest trying to understand how their ecosystems work, as well as their immune system. Evolution is all about selectively breeding. Alligators rarely see 7 feet because of human selection, rattle snakes are being born with out rattles because of human selection and elephants are being born with out tusks because of human selection. So be careful what you decide to breed, how you house it and why.

[Stargazer]

I think you're preaching to the choir on this site, Craig.