Classical conditioning video

[JuliusSqueezer]

Hey...did you catch that mantis or did you buy it in a pet store? It just occurred to me that not everyone has their house and shrubbery covered with those things every summer and may not know as well as us southerners about how they act normally. We play with hundreds of them every year...out in the yard. BW speaks the truth. they always hop to a higher perch. We get walking sticks too sometimes...those are cool...holy crap...I'm at my mom and dad's house in the north ga mtns. they put motion detectors in the driveway...it's like a freaking parade out here. Everytime a bobcat, deer, opossum, raccoon, bear or fox goes by.beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep How does anyone sleep? I think the foxes LEARNED to do it to pester my dad lol..They have been running back and forth for an hour non stop.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

That is fine BW I can accept that, if I ever want to keep a mantis again I may get you a new video, until then I could always e-mail you every time a scientist conditions an insect to do something so you can look into it yourself.

Where did I say that insects could not be conditioned? I have not read enough on the subject to make an objective opinion. I just said that I don't think that YOU did it and provided no evidence to the contrary.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Some birds can learn. Some can't. Some are definitely smarter than others but..none of them can seem to work out trig or calculus. I know a macaw that can ride a bike across a tight wire though. That's pretty cool.

A lot of what birds do, at a glance seems genius or great engineering but the reality of their intricate nest building is that it's hardwired instinct. If you go poke a hole in any bird nest, they will keep laying eggs anyway even though they all fall through to the ground. No repair...no making new...the engineering is pretty cool..but it's hardwired ...what do birds and mammals have to do with bugs though?

[razeraze]

We caught that ones mother and raised up the babies. I am well aware of their behavior that is why I used it to my advantage. This would have never worked with a cockroach, but I wonder if target training may work with them, I heard they have incredible eyesight.
Eventually I got them to leap down to me and off of higher stuff down to my hand. But again not a huge accomplishment hand feeding helped a ton.

No where near as amazing as the bee studies but again I was doing this for the sole purpose of a forum argument, not because I wanted to make a living out of it and be backed by the pentagon. II only have the one video of the lizard training as well because at the time it was just to prove associative learning on a forum. I may clicker train my blackthroat but I am not sure yet.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Where did I say that insects could not be conditioned? I have not read enough on the subject to make an objective opinion. I just said that I don't think that YOU did it and provided no evidence to the contrary.

I was referring to this

"I agree with your observations. Can we really "train" insects? Their
neural systems are efficient but not really cognitively "advanced".

Training and conditioning go hand and hand.

Julius I was just wondering where you draw the line on what species can learn. How do you vote on fish and the bees?

[JuliusSqueezer]

I don't see any evolutionary advantage for any degree of bug intellect. Swarms, hives etc are typically made of expendable individuals. If a bee had even a smidge of smarts, it would learn that if it stings it dies. Spiders would learn not to build their nests in doorways where they get knocked down every night...yet they keep rebuilding. The only way you can teach them not to build there is to knock them far enough away that they find a suitable place before they make it back to the doorway. Bugs are dumb dude. Please don't make us stay up all night arguing over how dumb or smart bugs are lol. Where's louise? I hope she doesn't see this. We'll have to hear about love bugs if she does.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Fish and bees? is that the water sports kinky sex ed story?

Bees aren't fully understood but...the whole dance and navigation thing they do seems to be chemical. I think we look at some behavior and try to put it in terms we understand and mistake some behaviors as learned responses or training or whatever when there are forces at work outside our basic understanding. Fish have a sensory organ that we don't. So do reptiles. Trying to understand how they work is like explaining the color red to a blind person. I've personally never noted a single activity from any insect or reptile that i couldn't write off as instinct or association.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

I don't see any evolutionary advantage for any degree of bug intellect. Swarms, hives etc are typically made of expendable individuals. If a bee had even a smidge of smarts, it would learn that if it stings it dies. Spiders would learn not to build their nests in doorways where they get knocked down every night...yet they keep rebuilding. The only way you can teach them not to build there is to knock them far enough away that they find a suitable place before they make it back to the doorway. Bugs are dumb dude. Please don't make us stay up all night arguing over how dumb or smart bugs are lol. Where's louise? I hope she doesn't see this. We'll have to hear about love bugs if she does.

Bees are not the only ones killing themselves for the "greater good, or 70 virgins":confused1:
There are advantages to insects learning especially in a social structures like bees. Now like with all classes of animals, levels of learning are different you will never teach a mantis to use sign language, but basic learning like who provides their food, it is there.

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Trying to understand how they work is like explaining the color red to a blind person.

Ever see the movie mask with Cher?

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I was referring to this

"I agree with your observations. Can we really "train" insects? Their
neural systems are efficient but not really cognitively "advanced".

OK, captain observant, did I say that?

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

OK, captain observant, did I say that?

No but I thought you would like to keep your buddy up on things