Do snakes have feelings???

[DavidD]

I think snakes have most emotions. I don't want a bad thread so any negative comments can go to PM

[razeraze]

The problem behaviorists have with this debate and others like it is defining emotion vs instinct. Unfortunately there is a gray area in which is instinctive nature (fear, security, lust, hunger, species survival, self preservation etc.....) and learned or developed emotions (boredom, love, happy, sad, seasonally depressed, jealous etc....) overlap and are defined.

I voted maybe because if you perceive the instincts as original emotions, then snakes have emotions at a very primitive level. If you believe instincts are separate from emotion then reptiles do not have emotions.

Do I personally feel snakes can love? No love is found in the limbic and neo cortex of the brain which is found in birds and mammals. Only mammals have the neo cortex for advanced learning and problem solving. With all the complications of love I find it to be a mammalian trait, though birds show a great deal of fondness for their mates (and many are more loyal than humans) I do not think we can encompass all love in such a minute ideology such as monogamy or singing love songs.
Do I feel reptiles are intelligent and have some beautiful mating rituals (especially the crocodilians)? Yes, but it is a far cry from love. Do I feel horny is an emotion? No I feel that is an instinct, and if bellowing and rubbing snouts gets you the "nookie" then someone else may perceive that as seduction and love.

But what do I know

[AbsoluteApril]

Originally Posted by Jimbalaya

How many of you have experience, or heard of, a breeder removing mom or removing babies only to hear a comment that mom was rather pissy. Think she was sore? Possible but if she was it's highly coincidental.

I just wanted to comment real quick on this one... I believe it is an instinctual protective reaction. Mother boas will give birth, nudge the babies to get them moving around (it actually is very cute and neat to watch if you can do so without the mom seeing you), hover over them and when they see movement or feel a danger or threat is coming (ie, me, the loving caretaker), they hiss and strike. I was using a shield to get my big girl out from her litter and she was doing all she could to nail me, coming around the shield like a thunderbolt. (quite intimidating! And this is the snake that 'follows' me around and is only calm when I am the one holding her.) However, I don't believe it has to do with loving their babies, they are just being a good protective mother based on their instincts. As soon as you get that mom out, washed off and in a tub or enclosure with no more baby smell, they just want to get fed.

of course, this is just my opinion based on my interactions with my snakes. I believe they have some feelings/likes/dislikes, etc but I strongly hesitate to label any of it with a 'human' emotion.

[JuliusSqueezer]

It is dangerous to consider "stress" as an emotion. In our lives, we use the term too broadly. The reality is that it is a disease. It is a very serious life threatening disease to many animals including reptiles. When stress is caused, the hypothalamus gland starts secreting hormones that block bodily functions and damage and even destroy vital organs. The key bodily function that is blocked is appetite. Many animals, lacking the ability to reason or tell time will starve themselves to death because they never feel hungry until the stress is relieved. Stress is not an emotion.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

It is dangerous to consider "stress" as an emotion. In our lives, we use the term too broadly. The reality is that it is a disease. It is a very serious life threatening disease to many animals including reptiles. When stress is caused, the hypothalamus gland starts secreting hormones that block bodily functions and damage and even destroy vital organs. The key bodily function that is blocked is appetite. Many animals, lacking the ability to reason or tell time will starve themselves to death because they never feel hungry until the stress is relieved. Stress is not an emotion.

I am not sure I would consider stress a disease or an emotion. Stress is more of a stimuli or reaction to stimuli. There are healthy levels of stress that can actually help the body overcome feats or preform at a higher level. There are stress related diseases and unhealthy levels of stress as well. Much of medicine breaks it down to good or bad stress:
Stress is good for your immune system
But over all I would say stress is the stimuli or reaction to stimuli not a disease or emotion.

[Addicted]

If you believe instincts are separate from emotion then reptiles do not have emotions.

That's exactly how i feel it is.

Jason.

[JuliusSqueezer]

OK Then it's a "stimuli" that causes stomach ulcerations, shrinkage of lymphoid tissue and enlargement of the adrenals, blocked appetite, heart failure, strokes and kidney failures. Call it what ever you want. It's a broad term for a condition that can't be measured and with both effects and triggers that vary among individuals. I don't really agree with calling stress a "stimuli" Whatever stimuli you speak of would be the causative agent of stress. Not the stress it's self. Perhaps it's a middleman. Stimuli causes stress, stress causes any number of diseases? Will that work? Do we agree that stess is a "condition"? If so, it is my opinion that any "condition" that causes adverse physiological change from within is a disease.

edited to add...BTW, we are talking about reptiles here, not humans. Humans have the power to reason. Reptiles do not. They can't "think" themselves through stressful events with logic especially in captivity where escaping whatever is causing it isn't an option. I am 100% convinced that there isn't a ball python on the planet that won't happily accept and eat frozen thawed prey IF there is no stress. Yet...how often do we hear "My ball python only eats live prey"? Many keepers are too quick to sidestep it all with feeding live. The extra stimuli from live prey is indeed enough in many cases to invoke a feeding response but I don't think this is a good thing. The animal is still stressed and the stress is gradually doing damage that can easily become irreversible. Therefore, I think it's important...no...paramount to treat the stress rather than to bypass it.

[icicle]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

OK Then it's a "stimuli" that causes stomach ulcerations, shrinkage of lymphoid tissue and enlargement of the adrenals, blocked appetite, heart failure, strokes and kidney failures. Call it what ever you want. It's a broad term for a condition that can't be measured and with both effects and triggers that vary among individuals. I don't really agree with calling stress a "stimuli" Whatever stimuli you speak of would be the causative agent of stress. Not the stress it's self. Perhaps it's a middleman. Stimuli causes stress, stress causes any number of diseases? Will that work? Do we agree that stess is a "condition"? If so, it is my opinion that any "condition" that causes adverse physiological change from within is a disease.

edited to add...BTW, we are talking about reptiles here, not humans. Humans have the power to reason. Reptiles do not. They can't "think" themselves through stressful events with logic especially in captivity where escaping whatever is causing it isn't an option. I am 100% convinced that there isn't a ball python on the planet that won't happily accept and eat frozen thawed prey IF there is no stress. Yet...how often do we hear "My ball python only eats live prey"? Many keepers are too quick to sidestep it all with feeding live. The extra stimuli from live prey is indeed enough in many cases to invoke a feeding response but I don't think this is a good thing. The animal is still stressed and the stress is gradually doing damage that can easily become irreversible. Therefore, I think it's important...no...paramount to treat the stress rather than to bypass it.

So if I understand this right, You are saying that it is ok to feed live prey to Ball pythons, or would it be ok to feed all reptiles live if they go on a humger strike, and risk a bite wound?

[jen723]

I definitely don't think thats what he's getting at. Note he said "I don;t think this is a good thing."

He's saying (and correct me if I'm wrong JS) that many people have trouble getting bps to eat f/t, because they are stressed in whatever environment they are in. SO instead of dealing with the stress people feed live because it does invoke a stronger feeding response and people feel that the problem is solved, and they assume that it was the f/t prey that was the problem. He is advocating that people deal with the things that are causing stress to the animal so that it will have a feeding response with f/t prey. If the stress isn't dealt with, it can very negatively affect the snake's health. JS gave me a whole list of things to make sure of with my bp after I brought him home, so that the little dude wouldn't be stressed. He's been eating f/t food like a champ.

I hope that made sense...I'm really tired

	Ball Python

[icicle]

it did. been a long day