Power Feeding Pythons

[trendkill]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I have seen a 27 year old obese python and many other old snakes bordering obese.

So have I. I've also seen old obese humans. But the fact is.. while it wont kill everyone, it will take out many.

And a note on snakes that aren't obese, but grown quickly (quoted from a friend, when asked about a feeding issue I had with a baby Burm):

"I had two Burms die from bone deformities (invisible outside the body) that prevented proper digestion. The vet said the deformities were most commonly seen with and linked to rapid development." Neither animal was obese or even slightly overweight. He said they were around 6' at the time of their deaths.

Originally Posted by razeraze

Breeders are the last place I get information from. First I ask herpetologist and field researchers, then zoos and zoologists, then read their recommended readings and books.

Ok, I don't understand that.. after you just said this:

Originally Posted by razeraze

Every zoo and rescue I know of using feeding prey size and schedule as a guide to make it easier on the keepers not the snake.

So they don't practice what they preach?

And why wouldn't you take information from experienced breeders (I understand some are idiots.. but many are very responsible and do care a great deal for their animals), who have worked closely with large numbers of one or two species in CAPTIVE environments, for years? Rather than a zoo or zoologist or researcher, who may or may not even own or closely work with the species in question for any real length of time? Data on wild animals, 1 small group of animals, or even 1 or 2 animals alone does not reflect the specie's needs or lives entirely. By any means.

Do you know who Al Baldogo is? He's a keeper, breeder, field researcher.. he does it all. I've been to his house. He and his wife were kind enough to let my ex and I visit. He was in Indonesia at the time.. his wife entertained us. Their retics are caged in standard cages, given standard temperatures, and fed moderately. Babies and adults there are fed every 2-3 weeks. Why? Because these are the best ways that Al has found (granted spending more than enough time with these animals in their natural enviroments, researching and testing theories and different conditions) to raise healthy Reticulated Pythons (in large numbers) in captive enviroments.

And another point.. that I'm going to stress again.. people don't keep their animals like you do. Or how zoos keep them. A vast majority of people are going to keep their animals like most breeders do. Like most experienced keepers do. So why would you tell those people that they should always feed their snake when it's hungry? If that wont lead to obesity.. I don't know what will. And though your RTB is in a spacious naturalistic living area, she's still obese. I don't get that either.

Originally Posted by razeraze

Could someone please describe, the feeding schedule and prey size, humidity gradient as well as the cage size and temp gradient, cage decor, daily exercise, locality of this breeders snakes genetics reflecting size and amount of snakes and time dedicated to each snake as well as records on refused food and offered food. This way I can decide if this breeder is worth listening to.

Absolutely. I'll request all that information. This is what he said about his "power feeding schedules". I'm not sure if he's talking about Burms as well, because only Retics are mentioned:

"I basically fed pythons large prey about one to two thirds larger than the snakes actual girth. Babies would eat every four days and sometimes more often. Juveniles were on the same schedule as well as any retic up to ten feet. When they started eating rabbits I would feed every five days and offer a rat snack between meals. Most never refused a meal and when any did they were gravid breeding or shedding."

They were eating themselves to an early death. Ask any herpetologist and he will tell you.. they're hardwired to eat whenever they get the chance. Because in the wild, that chance doesn't come often. It has nothing to do with hunger or a need for nutrition. Their feeding instincts and responses have NOT adapted to captive life. So it's up to us to be responsible for the life that depends on us, and control their food intake for them.

	Red Tail Boa

[david]

i have quite a few burm and retics babies are fed every 2 weeks adults every 3 to 4 none are fat all are healthy

[Kobi Baby]

Great post!!!

Here's my routine.....take it for what you will.

Kobi has a killer appetite, and she will always begin searching for food around day 4 after feeding. After reading many posts by RazeRaze, I decided to try feeding her when she looked hungry. So I started feeding her every 5 days instead of every 7, and I noticed her packing on the weight....almost to an unhealthy look. So I've began feeding no sooner than 7 days between, and she's slimmed down to a healthy weight.

Jezi eats every 8-10 days, Kobi eats every 7-8 days. Jezi eats rat pinkies (PetDen has some good sized rat pinkies...perfect size for Jezi) and Kobi eats small rats.

For each snake, I record:
date and time of each feeding
Prey size, (or quantity if correct size is unavailable)
attitude towards the prey (hunting it, hesitant, etc)
poop dates
in blue
shed

All of this information helps me to keep track of why my snakes (Kobi) won't eat, and/or when I shouldn't even bother trying to feed them. Kobi is clock work. She goes into blue at the same time each month, and poops around the same time also. If her feeding day is going to fall close to when she goes into blue, I will begin to manipulate her feeding schedule to insure she gets a fuzzy rat before going into blue and shedding. Then she gets a small rat the day after her shed and poo. I am still learning with Jezi, but I've noticed that around day 7, she will begin staying on the top of her hide during the day, rather than in it, which translates into "feed me". Kobi does the same thing.

I have no idea what this post has to do with powerfeeding...I just feel like talking, I suppose

[stalk]

Ok I guess I'm going to be the bad guy here.

I'll restate that I don't recommend to anyone to do what I do unless they know what I do.

In Danktat's links, all of them associate overfeeding with obesity. Despite the aggressive feeding schedule of Apep, you all can see pictures of him and videos of him in man of my other posts. He is extremely healthy and while has the typical Burm softness, he is far thinner than most Burms I see. (The belly is soft, the rest of him is muscle.)

Serena, who is also on a somewhat fast schedule, is all muscle. Sayoko, my BCC, is fed on a schedule with a rat equal or less to her length. She looks great too. Her growth rate is far slower, 27" compared to Serena's 38" and they were born a week apart. But that's a-ok with me, I just want healthy snakes. I don't know nearly enough to even begin to guess the Suriname regurge sydrome, and have no intention of risking her life.

Given that Serena and Apep are not obese, are active and healthy and alert, I really see no reason why it may be wrong. The person who powerfed it, what other factors were involved? Cage sizing, I assume, is the minimum?

I think activity level has a lot to do with it. My snakes are all over the place, they have to actually travel a fair amount to get from the cold end to the hot end. And I see them in a few different temp gradients every day during the day, god knows what they do at night! When I peek in on them, they area always moving about all over the place!

I can't imagine a snake like mine in a 20 gal long cage getting anywhere near the activity level Apep does. He follows me one end of a 6' cage to the other every day when I'm on the computer, until I let him out.

I'm not advocating what I do to those who follow standard cage sizing and temperatures and setups. It does feel as though a blind eye is being turned toward my comments. This guide specifically said Pythons, not Surinames just to be clear. I'm not in any way advocating doing this for Surinames, no matter the size.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

[danktat]

I think this applies not only to all species of snake but all animals kept as captive pets. I feel that the Suriname Bcc is just an amplified example of the damage it "can" cause. I would relate it to humans smoking. We all know that the common knowlege is geared toward smoking being bad for the healt of those who do it. PERIOD. Now I can state examples in my own family of those who smoked for a good portion of thier lives (50+ years) and still are alive and reasonably healthy (my great grand mother is still alive at 92). That does not, however, mean that I would tell a person with less life experience "While it can harm your health, look at my great grandmother. It hasn't hindered her hardly at all." Not only would it not be representative of the whole picture but it can also be dangerous to whoever I am saying it to.

I believe what happens is that before someone is told that it isn't quite healthy to overfeed they do it. Then get used to doing it and become comfortable with it, becoming skeptical when they hear otherwise. The become resistant to change because that would mean admitting that they may not have been doing what was best from the beginnig. I also think that there are those personalities who simply enjoy going against the grain, with the mentality that even though it may not be a good idea they MUST find a way that they can defy it and still make it work. For those people I say, hey, do what you do. I do however feel the need to respond when there are many less experienced keepers who will WANT for feed heavily and find an excuse to do so on the forums. For those who don't know any better it can be dangerous for them to take the parts that "Support" their desire to do a certain thing and disregard the MANY who say there should be something different done.

Granted there are things that I do in my husbandry that are diferent than alot of people feel is "in the best interest" of the animals, so I am by no means holier than thou. I do not however disply alot of those things publicly for newbies to see and copy.

These are just my opinions so take it for what you will. Just felt the need to reflect some of the discussion back for thought.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

[stalk]

What you say is true, I did not mean what I say to be geared towards the average person. I have never advised anyone to feed like I do. Anytime someone posts asking for help, I will advise based on caresheets. I only meant what I said towards those of you with a lot of experience, I wouldn't talk about this with someone new to the hobby or not educated or experienced.

[danktat]

I didn't think you did (it is a matter of fact you said that from the beginning)....I just wanted to clarify the "standard" position so that the newbies wouldn't use some of the posts in this thread to justify overfeeding simply because they "want" to overfeed and can find someone who says it is ok.

[mpgt]

I'm firmly on the side of controlled feeding. This is a fairly controversial subject though. I hope everyone can give and take opinions here and not get too emotional. I think there are bigger missteps in husbandry that occur every day.