Feeding Question about my new boa

[JuliusSqueezer]

Some snakes can gorge. Some snakes can't. Just because some can, doesn't mean general statements about "snakes" can be made.

Chappell Island tigersnakes are the largest tigersnakes in the world. They are probably also the longest living snakes in the world. It is estimated that they have approximately an EIGHTY year life span. Chapell Island is tiny and there is no constant food source. Each year, Mutton birds visit the island and nest. When the chicks hatch, the tigersnakes come out and gorge themselves on as many as they can find for a solid 6 weeks then go back into the burrows and sleep for the rest of the year till next chick season. These snakes adapted to this lifestyle because it's the cards nature dealt them. Try this with a boa. It won't work so well. Also, any references to African pythons or other large pythons holding down excessively large meals means what to what a boa can take and keep down? NOTHING! They aren't the same animal. Pythons have a stronger stomach and a more efficient metabolism. As BW pointed out, there is no way to track what's kept down and what's regurgitated in the wild. Sometimes it takes a week or more for something to get puked back up. If someone takes the time and follows A snake around and records data...that's still just a single animal representing a single species...and good luck following one around anyway. It's not possible to follow a snake and not cause change to it's habits for a period of time to gather such data. The mere act of observation changes that which is being observed. This is a basic law of physics.

[razeraze]

Thank you Julius that makes a ton of sense, it would be interesting to follow up on stomach content and ability for boa constrictors (including the anaconda) to see how they differ and the meals they can handle.

BW The sources I talk to ask me why I bother getting into these squabbles with snake keepers, so I do not want a ton of people contacting them harassing them about this. How ever I sent you the list of the 4 people I have talked and more I could contact if you wish, I would appreciate you treat them with more respect than you do me and not pass their names onto everyone.

The last source for the outside surface readings was not listed for the same reason. He is not a field researcher or herpetologist or author he simply keeps varanids and does some field herping.

And you can find the Taxonomy book cheaper I recommend you pick it up it is a fantastic book for anyone into reticulatus, salvator or curtus.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Raze... A lot of us talk regularly to some pretty well known people. Some I have dealt with over the years for various different matters include but certainly are not limited to countless Biology professors at major Universities all over the world. Many of these people are snake hook customers. It's a pretty regular event to have one or two big name PHDd herpetologist show up and lecture at one of the SHHS banquets held at the Columbia South Carolina hot shows. After the lectures, we are all bumping elbows at the dinner table and talking snake with people fresh out of the jungles. Granted, the last one I wanted to strangle because it appeared he was going to give us some earth shattering new taxonomy information so..we sat patiently (not so patiently for me. I needed to pee pretty bad) and got a long windy explination of the basics of taxonomy. grrrr The speaker from the show prior to him though was Dean Ripa, Director of Cape Fear Serpentarium. Educational Exhibits at Cape Fear Serpentarium Wilmington NC Click the link and read about his works on Bushmasters. He's a pretty cool character. He has survived being bitten 4 times by a snake that offers about a 1 in 5 chance of survival. No one else on record has been so lucky. At least one of Jeff Corwin's Field herpers that scouts ahead and finds the animals he pretends to find on TV is a good customer of mine. I get emails and phone calls pretty much weekly if I averaged it out from all sorts of field researchers, university professors, Wildlife officers, Advanced well known herpers..usually starting out with snake hook orders but conversations drift into other things. Sometimes some of my new designs sprout from putting our heads together and working out a tool for a specific application they need. Several years ago, I started noticing a wide variety of dosages and schedules being prescribed by vets abroad for Baytril. Wanting to know for myself what was the best, I called Bayer where it's made. They wouldn't give me any information on dosage because it's not made for reptiles and I'm not a vet. So I called back I think somewhere around a dozen times till I finally landed on someone there that actually keeps reptiles and was willing to help. I gained a TON of information from him. Like many other old herpers, for a short while, I used Ivermectin diluted and sprayed from a spray bottle to treat mites. When I had a young copperhead and a texas longnosed snake go into convulsions and die on me, I figured it was an allergic reaction and not an overdose due to the fact that I had sprayed them a week prior the exact same way and they were fine. I confirmed this theory by calling MANY zoos and speaking to reptile curators. I figured the guys in charge of handling large zoo collections eventually would turn up someone in the know. I turned up 3. Ivermectin is a drug that many snakes are indeed allergic to. The first time they are exposed won't show any symptoms. The second time if they are allergic, the antibodies attack all out of whack and anaphylaxis kills them. I have a couple of Australian field researchers / snake hook customers / friends that sent me a lot of downloadable research papers on Australian reptiles in PDF but I only got a couple of them uploaded to my site before I got side tracked and now ...I think the rest are on my dead laptop. You can go read them if you want. Thanks for reminding me, I need to email those guys and get those re-sent....Most of my circle of contacts, acquaintances and friends are a wide variety far from just being breeders and pet dealers. Heck...because of my harsh stance on things like inbreeding, passing off diseases as "cool morphs" etc. A lot of big breeders probably want me dead. I've always been more into field study/field herping than pet keeping even though I keep a lot of pets. What's my point in all this? None really. Just figured I'd try and give you an idea why some of us might not be so impressed because you have been emailing with a couple of "herpetologists". Anyone deeply rooted into this hobby has surely bumped elbows with someone. Even if you suck their brains dry and learn everything they know, what to do with the information once you get it is an entirely different matter and can be quite dangerous if you rely heavily on what a lot of is theory, misinterpreted data, missed points etc. Scientists as well as any member of the human race are well known to regurgitate information....good or bad. Hence my example of Emeralds snatching birds from the air as they fly by. It's a good source for understanding some things but alienating the wisdom of those in the thick with these animals daily for decades to rely completely on the words of Dr Whomever who's probably never really hands on keeping but has a few field observations that may or may not mean anything...is a mistake you and your animals may very well soon or later regret.

[razeraze]

If this is true then why bash me when I am quoting the very people you look to answers for? To me it is all fairly logical what they have been saying and what I have been reading, just because it goes against the popular view of reptile keeping (as does your stance on morphs) Does not mean it is wrong.

Few animals in the wild have the luxury of basking for 4+ hours with out getting attacked by something, so a hotter basking spot for a shorter period of time is very beneficial, it works wonders with shy reptiles or insanely scared reptiles like my last salvator.
My snakes bask for 1-2 hours maximum on hot spots, on the cooler shelves (the many shelves under 100F) they lay on for 6+ hours. The monitors bask for 2-3 hours on the hot spots and lay all day on the cooler shelves.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

BW The sources I talk to ask me why I bother getting into these squabbles with snake keepers, so I do not want a ton of people contacting them harassing them about this. How ever I sent you the list of the 4 people I have talked and more I could contact if you wish, I would appreciate you treat them with more respect than you do me and not pass their names onto everyone.

Got it. I know alot of names on here and have known a couple of these guys for years. I think several, if not most, are already in my contacts. Although I fail to see why you did not publicly reference the book And of course I treat them with respect. I always try to to treat everyone with respect until they prove they warrant treatment otherwise (whether permanently or in a particular situation). But I will check these out when I have a chance and hopefully we can shed some definitive light on the validity of some of your claims.

If this is true then why bash me when I am quoting the very people you look to answers for?

Because they can back up their claims. It is that simple. I think that you don't understand why you are getting your rectum handed to you repeatedly. It is because you SAY you have proof, but have not provided it. This makes your argument invalidated. You are making some drastic claims. If you are going to make drastic claims, then it should be "I think THIS is correct and This, This, and This are evidence to prove this stance.". But what you offer is "THIS is the way it is because someone told me so". Can you see the difference? You did good by giving the reference relating bat consumption. However, you also have make sure that you read the entire works and comprehend the data. Your conclusions regarding the bat consumption is not supported by the paper. After that snafu, other claims based on sources become suspect as well. If you are going to site scientific information, then the information must be available or be first hand information otherwise the argument holds no weight. THAT is why many respected individuals can argue a point successfully and you often fail at it. Hopefully that sheds some light and will help you in providing valid arguments in the future. Your arguments in this instance are reminiscent of the Burm Range Map from USGS. It look official, but once proof was asked for, it could not be provided to back up their claims. This is why Michael and Dave tore it to shreds.

The last source for the outside surface readings was not listed for the same reason. He is not a field researcher or herpetologist or author he simply keeps varanids and does some field herping.

That is where alot of good data comes from. Actually, that is how a great deal of research is spawned. Field herpers observe unique instances in the wild and share their findings. Then someone "official" investigates it "officially". Since you hold this person's experiences in high regard, perhaps you should yield a bit respect to the experience of those have a decade or more of experience with various species both in captivity and in the field.

Getting way back to the original topic. Another thought came to me while driving today. Perhaps in some species we are seeing more sensitivity due to inbreeding depression. BCI, in particular, is very prone to this. But we see it as well in most boids. Just one more cog to add to the machine to possible causes of regurgitation.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

[JuliusSqueezer]

I'm not bashing you for speaking to anyone. If what I am trying to tell you is bashing at all, it's just that you discount and alienate "snake keepers" in favor of "lizard keepers" and call snake keepers idiots and to be quite frank, have made quite an idiot of yourself by doing so.

I don't agree with your hotter/shorter theory being "better". It's one way of many to do things. It may be "better in some circumstances for some animals in some occasions but for others, it may be better otherwise. It's a broad stroke once again painted by your very wide paint brush. You have limited experience working with a couple of species and now you want to speak for them all. I have a variety of experience...some very limited, some very extensive and some somewhere in between of a vast variety of species...including venomous, non venomous, fragile and not so fragile ..and even varanids and other lizards though I hate to admit that part ...turts, torts, gators and phibs. My advice to you ...you need to lose that big brush. Reptiles are quirky animals that can't always be lumped into common husbandry practice. What works great for one will kill another. Your quick assumptions about higher temps for shorter periods being beneficial... Some snakes never bask at all. Some crocs bask pretty much all freaking day. Various metabolisms operate and require different things. AND, the two species that you keep...BCI and Retic are fantastically resilient and forgiving animals.... Especially as adults. Have you ever raised any baby snake to adulthood? didn't think so. Please don't try mucking with the husbandry of more fragile animals.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

[razeraze]

same environments just get used differently by reptiles seeing they all need heat to metabolize anything so common sense would conclude more heat is needed for larger prey, you see it in all reptiles despite species. The more food they eat or the larger the prey the longer they bask and the hotter the spots they search out to bask.

I love how you feel the number of reptiles makes one educated. I prefer the longevity of reptiles makes one educated. So far my oldest is only 6 years old and not because she is resilient but because I find answers from better sources than typical snake keepers. I know plenty of snake keepers with many reptiles but none over 5 years old.

Monitors are far more difficult than any snake I have ever kept or anyone I have ever talked to who keeps both. Crocodilians do not have the majority of problems monitors have they just require more water and space, but they are a more lenient species than varanids. I have talked to meany venomous keepers and people working with fragile species such as siamese crocodiles, chinese alligators, boelens pythons, alligator snapping turtles, massasauga rattlesnakes and pretty much every other "delicate" species. All of them agree the varanids are the most difficult to keep, breed and house long term, partially because of all the egg complications with fertile and infertile eggs.

[JuliusSqueezer]

There are soooo many factors you leave out. Age for one. Explanation of what is considered larger prey, prey type etc...to a baby snake, larger prey could mean a 5 day old pink rat rather than a 1 day old pink rat. To many keepers, larger prey may actually mean something more appropriate than what they have been feeding in the past. Different species have different metabolisms and requirements. Sex is even a factor. Female snakes of most species stay closer to home while males are more apt to roam. Exercise therefore creates faster metabolisms in males. Males would probably either benefit more or just choose the quick hotter basking than females would...especially gravid females who need to maintain fairly constant incubation temps. The point I'm trying to make is that...sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes maybe. There is NO SUCH THING as always or never You seem to be skimming some notes and not comprehending enough and are making too many assumptions based on...skimming notes from others. Most of mine comes from field observations and decades of trial and error starting some 20-25 years before there was this thing we call internet and the only information came from hands on experience or the 5 or 6 pages of vague information found in the pages of world book encyclopedia. Reading is good. Doing is better. You get knowledge from books. You get wisdom from doing. It's funny how lopsided it is though that what you learned from the books gets updated, debunked and completely discredited far more often than things you master over the years with hands on experience.

[JuliusSqueezer]

wait...alligator snapping turtles are delicate? Since when? The only reason their numbers are declining is because people are eating them faster than they can reproduce. Otherwise, they are as hardy as any other turtle. I wouldn't say varanid keeping is harder...just different. Go raise some new born candoia or get a fresh litter of pygmy rattlesnakes feeding for you and come back and tell me what's harder.

[razeraze]

You are absolutely correct there are many factors, I am zeroing in on one (not as wide of a paint brush as you would think). Yes books and research can always change and as soon as I have evidence that hot basking spots do more harm than good in a properly set up enclosure or in a natural environment I will change my tone, until then I will keep posting my updates to those who want to know as I do.

You will find I have no problem with changing my view but I seldom take advice from people with grand collections and too little time to really focus on a specific problem. This translate right into the BCC regurgitation, breeders have "fixed" the problem so why look into it any deeper? Simple breeders have not answered the question of large cages with broader temp gradients and the affect on regurgitation, nor if regurgitation is common in the wild.
Now Tammy made a great observation and instead of people noting it, they turn this into a fly off the handle peeing contest over who knows who, who keeps what and what is "more delicate".

Sorry I have too much to learn and the more I do find credible sources the less I listen to big collectors or those who have a ton of short term experience with a broad range of reptiles (jack of all reptiles master of none).

I am concerned with learning about boas and pythons that get over 8 feet, varanids that get over 4 feet, crocodilians and alligator snapping turtles. People who brag about their venomous collection or field research on a garter snake really is not impressive to me.

Alligators are a very delicate species because they take a long time to reach sexual maturity in fact many "experts" are not even sure at what age or size this occurs. You simply can not start a breeding project for them in hopes of re-release instead you have to try and relocate species and hope you have enough mature ones to try and repopulate areas. How ever with relocating extensive DNA tests on Illinois snappers had to be done to be sure they are similar to other state species. And much of it is not from consumption but there are few habitats that can support them in Illinois anymore.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor