Feeding Question about my new boa

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Go raise some new born candoia or get a fresh litter of pygmy rattlesnakes feeding for you and come back and tell me what's harder.

Funny I know the guy heading up the massasauga rattlesnake project in Illinois his vast amount of rattlesnake species all are doing fantastic, how ever he is constantly trying to rehome his varanids and they are not doing nearly as well.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...Illinois snappers...and breeding and repopulating them...That's not delicate. That's just time consuming. What self respecting turtle wants to live in Chicago anyway? They belong in the Bayous.

I don't really care who you get advice from. What bothered me and maybe everyone else here that piped in (can only speak for myself) was the advice and information you were giving and the way you were giving it was ranging from flat out wrong to misinterpreted, too vague, too broad, quoted as fact though totally speculative, tons of irrelevant comparisons...and trying to make quotes from other people on other sites look like mine was just idiotic and uncalled for. All of this to prove that a huge cage with a huge gradient even though you admit a good portion of the cage is now useless space is better than a fine tuned smaller cage. Well...it may be for some. It may not be for others. I've never argued against a wider gradient range. In fact, if you search my prior posts, I've mentioned it at least a few times probably since I've been here. It is a way to do things. It is not THE way to do things. There are a lot of factors to consider. I believe you considered enough to make using your lizard cages ok for your snakes but you didn't consider enough of them before criticizing those of us who don't build club houses for snake cages. Stacks of front opening 2 and 4 foot cages may seem insufficient to you but do you consider that some of these snakes actually have more room to roam than your snakes do? A 12-24 inch snake in a 4 foot cage has more room than a 10 foot snake in an 8 foot cage. You just have to know how to scale things up or down and stop projecting your needs of justification on to others. Many snakes seem to feel more secure in smaller cages. One of the many ways I destress ball pythons and get them eating is to cramp them up, keep them cool, dark and quiet for awhile and let them as if they were in a den where they feel most secure. I'm not saying it's the way to house them permanently but it's a great temporary housing method to solve certain issues. Again...no such thing as always or never.

Here's how I house BCI (I think at this point it's a good idea to focus on a single species)

Newborns, I separate into a shoe box rack till they eat a couple of meals. They are secure there and if left to a larger cage would find a tight spot and confine themselves anyway. Observation is easier in a smaller cage so the opportunity to jump on health issues that may come up are less likely to be missed and therefore beneficial to the animal.

Typically, babies are sold off for at least the most part fairly early so larger permanent caging isn't often required for many but those that do stick around end up in 2 x2x12 cages till those are outgrown and then into 4x2x12 cages. Sometimes they outgrow those and end up in 6x2x2 cages. Maybe even a double stacked 6x2x2 with a trap door and choice of 2 cages. Up top would be a normally set up cage with a good wide gradient. Down below would be cool and dark, like a burrow.

Tall cages present heating problems and are generally a waste of space for boas. Overhead heat of all types has a common issue. It cones out. The further the distance from heat source to floor, the wider the footprint of heated area. Lower ceilings provide more pinpointed heating areas and make setting up gradients more efficient. Basking shelves and climbing branches don't have to be 4 feet off the ground to be used effectively. Making the best out of lower ceilinged cages also of course is more energy efficient and less of a fire hazard since lower wattage can be used to obtain proper temps as opposed to some of these large monstrosities that require lots of high wattage devises plugged in to provide adequate temperatures...create hot spots and cool spots that may be wasted space. While it may very well work out if that's what you have to work with, I certainly wouldn't be too quick to judge other alternatives.

Have you ever had a mite problem? You will. When you do, you will find that ridding mites out of a large plywood cage lined with a pond liner even with the best products for ridding mites there are, won't work and you will have to burn all your cages to get rid of them. There are just too many places for mites to go and lay eggs the way your cages are set up that you can't get them all.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Funny I know the guy heading up the massasauga rattlesnake project in Illinois his vast amount of rattlesnake species all are doing fantastic, how ever he is constantly trying to rehome his varanids and they are not doing nearly as well.

So? What does that have to do with anything about a bunch of tiny baby pygmys that can curl up on an area smaller than a dime? Candoia aren't venomous of course but they are roughly the thickness of hair when born. Finding food and getting them to eat it is something that far fewer people are geared for than those that can build a big pen full of dirt for a big lizard. Anyway....once again...you find an example of something that's pretty irrelevant and offer it as proof of something. If I find someone willing to state on record that the world is flat, is this proof that baby pygs and candoia are more challenging than keeping a lizard? Does it even matter? Every species of every animal has a degree of challenges. Varanids would only be a challenge to me because I would consider it a waste of space and time to keep animals I have zero interest in. If I liked them, I'd have them.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I love how you feel the number of reptiles makes one educated. I prefer the longevity of reptiles makes one educated. So far my oldest is only 6 years old and not because she is resilient but because I find answers from better sources than typical snake keepers. I know plenty of snake keepers with many reptiles but none over 5 years old.

There are a number of factors that contribute to experience, and you correct in that it is quality of experience rather than quantity. Just look at pet shop employees. But one 6 year old snake is not impressive. I have several over 10 years old. My oldest was 17 confirmed and my current oldest is between 16 and 20 (no way to know for sure). So the fact that you don't know any snake keepers with animals over 5 years old tells me that you A) don't count people online (so you shouldn't count all the experts you haven't met) or B) you hang out with all newbies. And I don't think that your snake made it to 6 because "I find answers from better sources than typical snake keepers". Six years old is not really much to brag about. That just means you didn't screw up too much. You can keep most common species alive 10 years just by following your basic care sheets found all over the internet or reading one good book. Not impressive and not extraordinary.

Monitors are far more difficult than any snake I have ever kept or anyone I have ever talked to who keeps both. Crocodilians do not have the majority of problems monitors have they just require more water and space, but they are a more lenient species than varanids. I have talked to meany venomous keepers and people working with fragile species such as siamese crocodiles, chinese alligators, boelens pythons, alligator snapping turtles, massasauga rattlesnakes and pretty much every other "delicate" species. All of them agree the varanids are the most difficult to keep, breed and house long term, partially because of all the egg complications with fertile and infertile eggs.

While I do agree that monitors and lizards in general have more demanding habitat requirements than most snakes (i.e. more square footage, UVB, etc), this paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Why in the world do you keep brining up monitors in a discussion about snakes? Paragraphs of irrelevant information are just that ......... irrelevant.

[Texas Rattlesnake]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Another thought came to me while driving today. Perhaps in some species we are seeing more sensitivity due to inbreeding depression. BCI, in particular, is very prone to this. But we see it as well in most boids. Just one more cog to add to the machine to possible causes of regurgitation.

Here's another thought because I've been thinking of this as well. WC BCC obviously do not tolerate stress as well as CBB BCC, and perhaps are less tolerant of temps that differ from their native environment.

I believe F1 BCC from WC parents have similar issues. I have never had a BCC that was not WC or F1 of WC give back a meal. Also, Peru BCC do not seem to have any issues. The Iquitos locale seem to grow faster and bigger than BCI.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

	Wild Caught Wild Caught

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by Texas Rattlesnake

Here's another thought because I've been thinking of this as well. WC BCC obviously do not tolerate stress as well as CBB BCC, and perhaps are less tolerant of temps that differ from their native environment.

I believe F1 BCC from WC parents have similar issues. I have never had a BCC that was not WC or F1 of WC give back a meal. Also, Peru BCC do not seem to have any issues. The Iquitos locale seem to grow faster and bigger than BCI.

That is a good point. There is a great deal of variation within a species or subspecies. A suriname caught by a river may be acclimated to a much different environment than one caught on top of a mountain. A 90 degree hot spot for a mountain suriname may cause instant regurge for example.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

	Wild Caught Wild Caught

[JuliusSqueezer]

That one guy that heads up "the massasauga rattlesnake project in Illinois"...first of all "the"? He's the only person in Illinois working with them? He apparently has no interest in monitors if he's constantly trying to "rehome" them so why does he have them to begin with? Are they rescues that come in? Dropped off on his porch? I'd certainly hate to have my husbandry judged based on some of the sad looking animals that get dropped off here from time to time. I know plenty of people that keep both and do well. I know some that don't keep anything well. I know one guy who keeps mostly monitors. Does quite well with them but his snakes all look like crap. Most are kept in tubs just piled around the basement. He has/had the most horrific looking messed up green tree python I'd ever seen. It was in a walk in cage that once held blackthroat monitors, ironically. It never occurred to me to take the fact that his monitors look good and his snakes don't that all monitor people are morons when it comes to snakes. It's not fair to find one or even a few examples and try to spread it across the horizon to "all" keepers. A few examples of bad husbandry only proves a few examples of bad husbandry and nothing more. "The guy" heading up "the" massasauga rattlesnake project in Illinois has some sad looking varanids from time to time? Do you know the circumstances of how they got that way? Did he himself let them get to "not doing so well"? Perhaps he doesn't have any interest in them or hasn't taken the time to learn about them for whatever reason. This can go for any given keeper with any given animal. They may be deeply involved with some of their animals and neglect the others. It's not right but it happens. At least he's trying to find them homes where they will hopefully be cared for. I bet there are plenty of people that keep monitors that if they had a couple of rattlesnakes dropped off on them, they wouldn't have the first clue how to take care of them. Your one irrelevant example of one guy with monitors of unknown circumstances that aren't doing as well as his rattlesnakes is about as telling as a couple with a football jock all American straight A student son and a shoplifting, crack smoking daughter that had a baby at age 13. Does this mean boys are easier to raise than girls? Does it mean they took better care of the boy? No..It means nothing. There were probably some other factors that we don't know about that should be found out and considered before any judgment is passed on the parents. There are countless circumstances and even sets of circumstances that could cause even very well kept animals to suddenly go down hill. Sometimes it's the keeper's fault. Sometimes it isn't. Disease, death, accidents can happen at any time to any living thing at any given age. I've had "healthy" animals roll over on me plenty of times. Most keepers that have been at it for any length of time have. I'm pretty sure you have and don't you have a water monitor that pukes all the time? That's not normal. I know a guy that has one that never pukes so that must make you a bad water monitor keeper. See my point?

[Texas Rattlesnake]

Squeezer & BW, I went down to our boa cave and checked on our sub-adult Iquitos BCC. We have a new record. Since 1/29/08, she consumed 5 large rats and shed twice without taking a crap. Well, she did tonight. Looked like something you'd see in a truck stop toilet. She may be telling me it's time for Xl's.

By the way, two sheds with a bare minimum feeding schedule. It doesn't take much food for them to grow which is one of the many reasons we feed so conservatively.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor