Feeding Question about my new boa

[JuliusSqueezer]

I was wondering LOL

[pythonguy21]

come on brett you should know me better than that by now lol

[razeraze]

Improper basking spots cause food to rot in a snake, or a snake to throw up. Recently because of the endless boa bickering I have been asking some herpetologists about large meals in any reptile. Guess what? Among the 3-4 I have asked all believe it is husbandry, not meal size or frequency. Now since multiple prey items can be consumed in the wild (especially bats a favorite prey of boas) and large meals can be consumed (such as iguanas) odds are it is the low basking spots and temperatures causing all these regurgitation problems and stomach rot. Here is a quote from an herpetologist on retics, but it applies to any ectothermic animal:

"In other words, the toxic effect of the prey item possibly results in the snake's death when the prey item is not digested fast enough to stop this toxic build up. So as a matter of reasoning, it would appear that the rotting, which creates a toxic effect, of the large prey item causes the death in these cases, where the toxins become greater than the sizable liver of a snake can handle.
.
This is much more likely to occur in captivity, because of the limited ability for a snake to find the optimum conditions in which to metabolise and digest their prey. In nature, they have greater ability to find the microclimate that would afford them the maximum opportunity to metabolise and digest their prey, but it is possible that these conditions cannot be found and that the prey item is just too large to properly digest before the toxic effects overwhelm the ability of the snake to cope with it."

There may be a book published soon about this very phenomenon and when I find out more about it I will let you all know.

So feed a snake when it is hungry, just like a monitor, or a turtle or a crocodile. If weight becomes an issue (obvious signs of obesity) then I suggest providing better caging, and more out of cage time.

I am not going to Argue about this, or compare BMI of humans and all the other roads we go down in this tiresome debate. I am going to say if anyone is interested in the discussions I have had with the herpetologists or any other information I can provide please contact me privately.

[TammyJ]

I find very interesting what Razeraze has said about temps and digestion. Recently we had some cooler than normal temps here at nights and in the day as well, and I should have done more to keep my tanks that are on the verandah warmer, because for the first time ever, my Jamaican boa Steve (sub-adult) and a little Jamaican trope both regurged their meals (mouse hopper and pinky rat) the day after eating and I was trying to figure out why. Now I am convinced that they just did not get warm enough, so that will not happen again, not because of their being too cold, anyway.

[razeraze]

Tammy do you mind if I pass this observation on to the herpetologists I have talked to about this? Do you have a recording of the temperatures for those days and the scientific names for the snakes?

[Texas Rattlesnake]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Improper basking spots cause food to rot in a snake, or a snake to throw up. Recently because of the endless boa bickering I have been asking some herpetologists about large meals in any reptile. Guess what? Among the 3-4 I have asked all believe it is husbandry, not meal size or frequency. Now since multiple prey items can be consumed in the wild (especially bats a favorite prey of boas) and large meals can be consumed (such as iguanas) odds are it is the low basking spots and temperatures causing all these regurgitation problems and stomach rot. Here is a quote from an herpetologist on retics, but it applies to any ectothermic animal:

"In other words, the toxic effect of the prey item possibly results in the snake's death when the prey item is not digested fast enough to stop this toxic build up. So as a matter of reasoning, it would appear that the rotting, which creates a toxic effect, of the large prey item causes the death in these cases, where the toxins become greater than the sizable liver of a snake can handle.
.
This is much more likely to occur in captivity, because of the limited ability for a snake to find the optimum conditions in which to metabolise and digest their prey. In nature, they have greater ability to find the microclimate that would afford them the maximum opportunity to metabolise and digest their prey, but it is possible that these conditions cannot be found and that the prey item is just too large to properly digest before the toxic effects overwhelm the ability of the snake to cope with it."

Interesting stuff, Raze. Thanks for sharing.

[TammyJ]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Tammy do you mind if I pass this observation on to the herpetologists I have talked to about this? Do you have a recording of the temperatures for those days and the scientific names for the snakes?

Not specific yet (I am going to try and get the exact temps from the Met Office here) re the temperatures, but I know they must have been in the high 60's to lower 70's. Normally at this time of year here in Kingston, the temps at night get between about 76-83 or higher.

The little trope is I believe what is called a Hispaniolan Trope, but was found here and given to me, I also acquired another one exactly the same kind, some years earlier, also found here. Tropidophis Haetianus Hemerus. Check out: www.kingsnake.com/westindian/metazoa12.htm. I do not have absolute confirmation that this is actually the trope I have, I go from a picture on the site I have mentioned, which seems identical to what I have.

The trope was given a live fuzzy mouse - his usual fare - on the evening (about 7 p.m.) at the same time as the young Jamaican boa (Epicrates Subflavus) was given a live pinky rat - also his usual fare along with mice sometimes. Neither of these snakes had EVER regurged before while I had them.

Not the next morning but the morning after that, the smell alerted me, and as I checked I saw that they had both regurged their meals. I can now see that there was no explanation why two different snakes, in good health, no previous regurges, should suddenly both regurge other than that they both experienced the inability to properly digest their meals because of the lower than normal temps, and I had neglected to attend to this fact.

Will try to find out the exact temps on those days.

Very interesting!

[razeraze]

Thank you Tammy when you have exact information I will pass it on, the scientist will be very interested in it, since most of their specimens die in the wild and are found much later.
The link you provided did not work, please find me another picture and I will try to identify it, or have them identify the snake.

The large species of Reticulated pythons and African rocks are usually killed by locals before digestion is allowed, so large specimens are opened up to be sure there is no human in them. There may be a book about this phenomenon, as soon as I have word I will let you know.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Raze, needing thermo regulation to properly digest food is not exactly a breakthrough discovery. The fact remains that boa constrictor metabolism and the ability to process large or frequent meals differs from that of most if not all colubrids and pythons greatly. It's hard to say whether captivity is any different than in the wild unless a great number of wild specimens have been observed over lengthy periods of time and their feeding/digestion/regurgitation habits have been properly documented. I believe this would be fairly impossible to pull off and I would take any data on this as pure conjecture. Also, nature can be and usually is very cruel. It's unwise to assume that what goes on there is always what's best for our captives. Boa constrictors have been successfully kept in captivity long enough that it's evident what works and what doesn't work for them IN CAPTIVITY. Exercise certainly plays a roll in metabolism and digestion but regardless of the size of your cage, you will never provide the same exercise opportunities that a wild animal has in the wild. It's not always a conscious decision for an animal to say "hey lets go do some aerobics". Encounters with predators, weather, distance from basking, hiding, water, food sources etc all force exercise that is humanly impossible to provide. Also the temporary raising of stress provided by things like encounters with predators, fleeing floods etc elevates the heart rate, gets the blood pumping and is beneficial to their daily exercise program provided they escape this danger unscathed. Basically, it's apples and oranges. Comparing or attempting to emulate the wild is an exercise in futility and does nothing to improve the life of your captive. I don't see an advantage to attempt to reinvent the wheel at this point and readjust husbandry in hopes that they can devour more prey more often. I fear that your "findings" and advice if followed in this particular case may cause harm to someone's animals.

[razeraze]

That is o.k Julius I do not rely on you or many people who's only evidence is their basement projects. I want real evidence and the best way to do that is to talk to the researchers.

If these reptiles evolved to live in specific habitats we would be wise to mimic the ambient temperatures, surface temperatures, and humidity of these environments. A researcher once told me how he went outside and recorded these important details in a termite mound. Then replicated these exact readings in a nest box for his lace monitors. All of a sudden he had generation after generation, yet many monitor breeders still can not breed lace monitors and this is most likely the reason.

Now that I have evidence these hot temperatures and micro habitats play a huge role in proper digestion you want to negate it and rely on your Tupperware observations? No thank you I will listen to facts and continue to use every resource not just what has been done in reptile breeding for generations.

Mother nature does it best and we should all learn from that.