Feeding Question about my new boa

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Varanus.nl forum / Info ? I've never been there let alone posted. If there is a JuliusSqueezer there posting, it's not me. The way you were quoting and responding while arguing with me, appears that those quotes were mine. They are not. I just want to make that clear to anyone reading.

The temperatures you are recording are surface temps. It's not the same thing as the air temp. Air temp would be a good bit lower...I hope. If not, that python's brain is toast.

You asked me for the herpetologist I was quoting so I listed one and his view.

Air temps are different. Even in the amazon or in deserts air temps seldom reach over 110F.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I have a photograph of a squirrel eating a dead bird. This doesn't make it "common".

While many nocturnal snakes are found during the day, Emeralds do not hunt by day...ever. If you see an emerald in the wild moving during daylight hours, something disturbed it and this is not normal behavior.

The stomach contents of the emeralds in the link you posted is from Dr Robert Henderson. If you will notice, it was all rice rats other than a skink found in one baby emerald. Monkeys, bats and birds were reported by "other authors"...again...these other authors could be chimps on crack for all we know.

Another misquote...

My question would be then why do you feel burrowing is so much more important than surface temperatures that allow for normal digestion or fever like immune responses.

When did I say any such thing? I don't recall outlining which is most important and I don't recall ever saying that proper temps aren't important.

Since you bring it up though, to many snakes burrowing is more important. Obviously your experience is based solely on a couple of species. There are many snakes that require NO special heating. Anything in the 70s and in some cases the 60s is not only fine but required and burrowing to most fossorial species is indeed much more important than basking. When's the last time you saw a basking ringneck snake?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by razeraze

You asked me for the herpetologist I was quoting so I listed one and his view.

Air temps are different. Even in the amazon or in deserts air temps seldom reach over 110F.

Really? You spoke to Dr Henderson? cool. If not, those weren't his views. They were the views of Dr Henderson with a hint of hearsay probably stemming from the same nonsense about birds being snatched from midflight. The only stomach contents mentioned kind of blow that myth credited only as (other authors) Go back and read and pay closer attention.

Air temps (ambient) are what's most important and what is meant by basking temps (by me anyway). Measure the temp at the point where air enters the nostrils. Ground dwelling snakes - about an inch above the surface. Arboreals- measure it where they roost. Surface temps, depending on the type of surface can vary quite a bit. wood or similar surfaces can be a good bit hotter than glass or stone before scortching nasty burns.

[razeraze]

Observations do not just get published they have to be reviewed and even then are subject to much peer debate and sometimes even legal action such as the Rodda paper on burms taking over the U.S.

I can only comment on the species I keep because they are the only ones I research, I can tell you my research on emeralds is limited but my research on other "nocturnal species" such as reticulatus and other large constrictors is not as limited. What I have found is the garbage illusion of "terrestrial" and "nocturnal" does not fit red tail boas, African rocks, Burmese pythons or Reticulated pythons. I know of an herpetologist that has found them all periods of the day and night as well as doing everything from swimming to climbing.

But I guess these would not be the norm according to private keepers who have them in sweater boxes.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Really? You spoke to Dr Henderson? cool. If not, those weren't his views. They were the views of Dr Henderson with a hint of hearsay probably stemming from the same nonsense about birds being snatched from midflight. The only stomach contents mentioned kind of blow that myth credited only as (other authors) Go back and read and pay closer attention.

Air temps (ambient) are what's most important and what is meant by basking temps (by me anyway). Measure the temp at the point where air enters the nostrils. Ground dwelling snakes - about an inch above the surface. Arboreals- measure it where they roost. Surface temps, depending on the type of surface can vary quite a bit. wood or similar surfaces can be a good bit hotter than glass or stone before scortching nasty burns.

Then I suggest you re-read. Many birds are taken from nests while the birds are sleeping, there are reports of bats being consumed but they are not sure how the bats are captured or even if the bats were alive during capture. You just assume these animals are taken out of flight.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...lng=en&nrm=iso
As far as the ETB My knowledge is limited because I do not research them, you brought them up, I am simply stating the little bookmarked references I have.

You should also rethink your ideas of basking temps. Basking temps should always be surface temps. The heated surface is how the snake speeds up stomach digestion. There is a great article on GTP in reptile magazine Feb 08 it discusses large meals and relation to choice basking spots, it also shows how ineffective a small belly surface area is for digestion.
Heat Seeker
That is a cheap overview I suggest you read the article.

	Green Tree Python

	Emerald Tree Boa

[JuliusSqueezer]

Again, you insinuate that I keep my snakes in sweater boxes. I don't. I don't keep them in untreated plywood tree house looking things either. My snakes live the good life.

I can find nocturnal snakes during the day as well. I know where they sleep

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

I don't keep them in untreated plywood tree house looking things either. My snakes live the good life.

Because tree house cages lined with pond liner will not work? Your kidding right? You assume these animals will not use these cages you do not know. In fact another article in reptiles magazine suggest that breeders who are bored with their collections spice things up in 5 ways. The first way is better more enriched caging.
Beyond the Plastic Box

And in the latest issue it shows step by step caiman cage building, it is a shame snake keepers won't think of applying it to snakes.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Not all snakes are 10-20 feet long. Keep a milksnake in one of those and see if you ever see it again. Also, people publish articles all the time. Anyone with a keyboard can submit one. It doesn't make it globally correct.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I really feel no need to compete with the vast knowledge scribbled in Reptile Magazine or blanket statements and quotes made to appear like mine but aren't. Does Reptile Magazine discuss things like Spider Balls head wobble? Green Burms and chronic fatal Respiratory disease? The horrors and lunacy of anybody breeding any burms for any reason? Iguanas? Red eared sliders? Of course not. Their sponsors wouldn't allow such things. Reading every word of every issue is not likely going to gain you any real knowledge unless of course you are starting from zero. I suggest a little more hands on learning over the course of 30 something years. I don't claim to know it all. No one does. But I know better than putting a small snake in a huge cage. I'll explain why it's a bad idea after you've tried it with anything lampropeltis or pantherophis awhile and I have a good laugh at your expense

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

So feed a snake when it is hungry, just like a monitor, or a turtle or a crocodile. If weight becomes an issue (obvious signs of obesity) then I suggest providing better caging, and more out of cage time.

Of course you realize that the method of "feed a snake when it's hungry" defies logic and goes against nature. Obesity from this feeding regiment does not signify lack of activity or improper husbandry so much as it indicates over-feeding. Snakes (and lizards and crocodilians) are opportunistic feeders, which means that they will take as much prey as their body will let them as often as they can. Why? Because prey is a vital and often scarce resource. There is not someone throwing rats or birds at every boa in the wild every time it gets a little peckish. Nor am I aware of any small mammal species that habitually follows around snakes in large groups to ensure that the snake's dietary desires (not needs) are met. But then, I have never hunted boas in the wild so their range may be a sea of scampering culinary delights for all I know. But if that is not the case, then your method of powerfeeding can be very detrimental to the snake's overall health and cause obesity, liver problems, and heart disease. It is also important to remember that predators miss a large percentage of the prey that they seek to secure. It may take 2 weeks for that wild boa to actually catch something.

Of course, there is also the external factors that effect prey availability such as disease, pesticides, habitat destruction, breeding seasons, and seasonal variations within the region. This may explain why snakes (and boids in particular) can often fast for a year or more. The simple ability to go without food for so long would logically bring forth the conclusion that they are not animals designed for rapidly concurrent feedings. It is more logical that they are designed for more scattered feedings.

Even genus such as Drymarchon that have extraordinary metabolisms will get obese if fed "when it is hungry". And these are animals that can digest a turtle in 48 hours. Boid metabolism does not fall any where near this.

Since we have elected to keep the animal in captivity, it is our responsibility to keep it healthy. This includes protecting it from itself by regulating food intake. Ever see a dog with unlimited food available? They get very obese and unhealthy very quickly. And dogs are much smarter than snakes.

"feed a snake when it's hungry" is just bad husbandry and bad advise plain and simple.

especially bats a favorite prey of boas

I looked through that paper. So 4 individual bats eaten by Boa constrictor in 40 years constitutes a favorite food? That study shows that bats are sometimes taken as prey, but falls very short of proving bats as a primary prey item. The paper also notes there is no distinction (or way to know) which bats were captured and which were already dead. It is not uncommon for snakes to take dead prey (as we all know). I have fed Candoia carinata paulsoni chicks before. So it is possible that avian prey is taken on occasion by Candoia, but the sweeping majority do not. And again I will refer back to Drymarchon, couperi in particular. There is documentation of D couperi taking young snapping turtles and gopher tortoises as prey, but this is by no means the norm.