Feeding Question about my new boa

[JuliusSqueezer]

Wow. basement projects? Tupperware observations? You are way off base my little friend. I've spent more days in the field than you have spent breathing. Let's attempt to talk civilly about this without personal insults and making assumptions that we have no idea about as far as each other's experience and education. I can assure you that I can debate with your "herpetologist friends" and walk away not looking like an idiot. I might learn something. I KNOW they will. Also, I never negated the role of temperatures in digestion. I just said it's not groundbreaking information. I don't know of anyone who can tell a toad from a turtle that doesn't already know this. Baking a boa does not however mean it can eat more often. In even a very large cage, the higher the temp is on the hot side, the harder it is to maintain a cool side and reasonable ambient temperature. If you crank the heat on a boa too much, overheating will cause regurges and dehydration. If it's a young boa, it will die very quickly. Many years of fine tuning husbandry has paid off and the prescribed temperatures work for these animals. It's not exactly a new species in captivity. Many have tried to keep them hotter and colder than what's universally accepted as correct for captive husbandry and have failed. Your thoughts are not new or unique.

Mother nature does it's best? Since when? If anything, it's random and plays no favorites. Mother Nature cares for the prey as much as the predators. Outside of intervening factors, there's usually a balance at least for awhile. Nature offsets mortality through large litter/clutch sizes. Why? Because natural populations of reptiles everywhere they exist are typically doomed to short lives on average. Beating the odds of falling at random into a routine where shelter, water, food, thermo regulation can be utilized without crossing paths with disaster is nearly or often IS a miracle for these animals. MOST die young in the wild. It's up to the animal to survive. Mother Nature is no help whatsoever and in most cases, is one of the many causes of death. Floods, drought, forest fires, sudden climate changes, volcanic eruptions, constantly supplying disease, parasites, predators...On the upside, as I mentioned earlier, these things keep the animals in a constant state of struggling to stay alive. It keeps them lean and mean and those that can survive it all, tend to typically be the stronger animals. This basic struggle for survival comes with a great deal of physical exercise. Even a sloth in a rain forest, while moving very slow, IS MOVING. Captivity, even at it's finest is a relatively sedentary life. There is no possible way to keep any reptile in captivity and provide the daily exercise they endure in the wild. Exercise is AS important in the workings of metabolism as is temperature. Even if you put your boa on a treadmill for 12 hours a day, it's not going to make up for the quick bursts fleeing from predators or pursuing food . Climbing even if just through a thicket, burrowing (slipping under a little crushed coconut isn't the same thing), swimming upstream fighting rapids or choppy waves. constant or fairly regular at least adrenalin rushes speeding up the old ticker....It just can't happen in captivity. So we adjust. In order to have healthy animals that can easily survive to a full life expectancy, we find suitable feeding schedules and temperature/humidity gradients that allow for success IN CAPTIVITY. Temperatures are one of the things we really have to watch though because assumptions are dangerous to many and cold blooded animals especially do indeed have to have set ranges of temps that they can survive as well as find comfort in for any given circumstance ie: digestion. A lot of snakes are forgiving. A lot aren't. Studying the surface temperatures in a given location doesn't always allow for things like shade, deep cool burrows, lofty roosts where it's shaded, cool and breezy despite the heat down on the ground. It may well be 112 degrees in the very spot your boa is native to in Colombia SA as seen on the bank clock on any given day but it's not likely anywhere near that hot where he would be spending his days in the shade or near a babbling brook. Take a temp gun out in your yard and go check out how variable the temps are in various different locations. You mentioned micro habitat but you then negate by minimalizing it down to "hot temps".

Mother nature does her thing. We do ours. Mother nature challenges her animals every moment of every day to merely survive what she throws at them. She has the luxury of cheap replacement and not being in any way emotionally attached to what dies or why. Even extinction is all part of her scheme and as natural as survival of the fittest. Is this really a game you want to play with your pets? THERE IS NOTHING NATURAL ABOUT CAPTIVITY. You can not just pick and choose what parts of nature you want to copy. There are other factors. Temps for most boa constrictors 88ish on the hot side and high 70s on the cool side for daytime temps work well and have proven for many years ideal. If more choices can be provided, great! as long as they can find comfort without sacrificing security. Many snakes WILL choose security over comfort and will at times remain way too hot or too cold just because of security issues.

[razeraze]

You are completely wrong. Mother nature has provided optimal temperatures and environments for specific evolution (unless you don't believe in evolution). If these reptiles were not meant to survive these environments they would not have for thousands of years.

I can keep a snake in a 500sqft enclosure just as easily as a 5sqft enclosure. You are basing all captivity on tiny cages arranged with a tiny temp gradients. If you have spent time in the field you would know this is not how they survive in the wild, so why do it in captivity? It makes no logical sense. You would not keep a caiman or monitor in these conditions, why because they would not survive snake enclosures and life styles. How ever you can keep any boa or anaconda, in a caiman enclosure or a large lizard enclosure. It is not because of magic and should say something about our current views of "proper" snake husbandry.
I love how we can't compare an anaconda to a boa or a BCI to a BCC this shows we don't know what we are doing. If cages were kept like environments and not space savers we could easily switch out a caiman for an anaconda or a boa.

Do you have recordings of surface temperatures in the field? I have both from personal observation and from scientist.

If the animals would not eat each other it would be very possible to keep many of them in the same habitat they would simply use it differently.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

[TammyJ]

I'm with the caterers.

[JuliusSqueezer]

500 sq feet is comparatively tiny to say...a continent It still doesn't compare and you still can't provide the daily struggles that keeps them moving like what goes on in the wild even with 500 sq feet and a cattle prod.

An anaconda IS a boa.

I don't need a degree to read a thermometer nor do I need a scientist to read one for me. Climates change. Animals adapt. Adaptations I believe is a far more accurate word than evolution to describe the changes we refer to as "evolution". It's all semantics though. Rather than relying entirely on some googled scientist information that could have been written by a crackhead chimp for all anyone knows, why don't you try setting your temps at moderately ideal temps as found on reliable caresheets and then observe your particular animal's habits. If your snake spends most of it's time hunkered down on the cool side, it's probably too hot in there. Adjust it down till he starts utilizing the whole cage and shows outward evidence of thermo regulating himself...and visa versa if he's hunkered on the heat all the time. That would mean the cage is overall too cool. Species as well as individuals among a species will for many reasons have different comfort zones.

So...who are your "herpetologist" friends anyway? The word is used loosely and means nearly nothing as far as credentials go. ANY member of this site would be correct in calling them selves a "herpetologist" since the word merely means "a person who studies herpetology" ...which merely means the "study" of reptiles and amphibians. For the higher learned, There is no such thing as a degree in Herpetology. Typically, those who sport credentials are biologists and zoologists who take interest in the slitherys enough to specialize. Not much money in it so this specialization is typically only used as a credential when it might impress a given audience. Those that come before us to change taxonomy or discuss various discoveries or what not may be a herpetologist while making their presentation but tomorrow, while trying trying to explain fish they are suddenly Ichthyologists. Chances are within a week they will also be Entomologists. Reality...If they have a PHD, they are more broadly Biologists and/or Zoologists but don't necessarily have to be either to use the terms as long as they study. If not for the deep rooted research done by us typical hobbyists, those guys wouldn't have the basics of husbandry to allow them to dig deeper into the finer details. We are as or maybe even more important than any scientist as far as figuring these things out. The same can be said for "reptile vets". Without us, even the best would still be completely clueless...many are. Relying solely on "credentials" especially for animals that encompass such a tiny fragment of related study is dangerous. They can be wrong too and often lack the real time it takes to specialize as much as they wish they could and so lack much needed experience. These guys have a lot more on their plates than just lizards and snakes. Knowledge can easily be obtained from books and a weekend of field research but it doesn't get to be wisdom until after much real time experience. I think that's why science is so conflicted all the time and needs constant updating. Too much is published too fast without taking the time to observe in real time. Thanks that can't easily be disproven are stated as fact. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't make it proven nor does not being able to prove something make it disproven.

BTW...you said hotter temps but didn't say how hotter? I've seen boas use a basking spot of around 95 before though usually for not very long. High 80s basking areas tend to get more use. Gravid females tend to seek more warmth than normal. Babies simply can't take the heat. Anything nearing 100 is going to start scrambling gray matter. 111 degrees Fahrenheit is the absoulte boiling point for all but a couple of species. Prolonged exposure to temps of or slightly above 111 as far as I know has been observed with Inland Taipans and Western Coachwhips without killing them. I don't know of any others but I suppose it's possible others can survive these temps...I do however know that no boa constrictor can

[razeraze]

You are right an anaconda is a boa (which is exactly my point) so why can't we keep them in the same set up? If I was an uneducated nut job who only read care sheets I would think they could not be kept the same as a BCC or BCI but since I read books and articles and talk to herpetologist (ones with degrees in zoology with an emphasize in reptiles not self proclaimed herpetologist, those would be herpetoculturist) I know anacondas CAN be kept the same as BCC or BCI or dare I say caiman or green iguanas.

Snakes are abundant in captivity because they are easy to keep in captivity. Any snake is far more tolerable of a small cramped cage with a pathetic temp gradient because many snakes stick to tight spots with micro habitats, do not have fast metabolisms and do not require the exercise a lizard or crocodilian does. Does that mean we are keeping them correctly? No this means they are a sturdy enough species to keep in these pathetic conditions.

If you set up a cage properly you do not need to use a strict diet plain and simple. Monitor keepers and crocodilian keepers think very lowly of snake keepers and I know why. Because rather than do real research snake keepers depend on some care sheet for advice on minimum everything.

"the reason we keep our snakes in tubs is because thats what's best for the snake"

This is a rather bold statement to make. How have you come to the conclusion that a tiny box is what's best for the snake? What makes you so sure that life in a tiny box atop newspaper is what's best for a captive? Have you ever experimented with offering exactly the opposite?

I have yet to come across any ecological study of a snake species which reports a home range size .5 sq meters. Snakes, just like any other reptile, will move throughout its territory/home range depending on its physiological needs at a given time. There is absolutely no way that one could provide all of the different environmental conditions needed, which would normally be encountered and used within an animal's home range, inside a tiny little sweater box.

This mentality is about cutting corners- the "minimalist approach" as I call it. Keepers who house their captives in tiny sweater boxes or racks are doing so just to cut down on several factors which would otherwise cause problems or frustration in their upkeep. Such factors include space (why house one animal in a large enclosure when you can house 12 in the same space) , money, and amount of time and effort put into maintenance (much easier to clean/maintain newspaper than to deal with natural substrates). Such an approach to reptile keeping is not about providing what's best, it's about providing the bare minimum just to get by (usually in the hopes of maximizing one's monetary gains in the process).

In response to your statement:

"our snakes live, eat, breed, and make generations of generations in tubs. thats reults Tom! reason enough for us to continue keeping our snakes successfuly in tubs!"

This would be the same thing as saying that puppy mills or chicken farms/coupes are what's best for these animals, because they are able to eat, live, and reproduce under such conditions. If living in tiny, cramped spaces, with very little choices or environmental conditions is what's truly best for these animals, why don't we see their wild conspecifics living in .5 sq meter areas, overcrowded with other animals, and no variability in the wild? Wouldn't animals in the wild choose to live in conditions that are optimal for them?

Using reproduction in captivity should in no way be deemed an acceptable 'standard' to guage what's optimal or even acceptable for a captive." Bob Mendyk
Varanus.nl forum / Info

	Boa Constrictor Imperator

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor

[JuliusSqueezer]

"the reason we keep our snakes in tubs is because thats what's best for the snake"

This is a rather bold statement to make. How have you come to the conclusion that a tiny box is what's best for the snake? What makes you so sure that life in a tiny box atop newspaper is what's best for a captive? Have you ever experimented with offering exactly the opposite?

"our snakes live, eat, breed, and make generations of generations in tubs. thats reults Tom! reason enough for us to continue keeping our snakes successfuly in tubs!"

WHO are you quoting? I don't have anything currently in "tubs" and I've never bred anything in a sweater box lol. It's not unusual for me to have a 5 inch baby something or other in a tub for awhile while I'm getting them started but I think you are quoting someone else. I also never use newspaper. I think for most species it's cruel not to provide a burrowing substrate.

Also, I know quite a few gator keepers that like me a lot. Those types of generalizations are ..well...generalizations. If they dislike someone just because that person keeps snakes and they want to assume the worst, it's they that have the issues and are missing out on being friends with a lot of really cool people.

[razeraze]

Yes this was form a previous discussion I provided the link but you will have to sign up to read the whole discussion.

I agree burrowing in substrate is very useful, the only reason I do not use it is because my snakes never burrowed. Burrowing is a great way to provide cooler temperatures or hotter temperatures if an UTH is being used. My question would be then why do you feel burrowing is so much more important than surface temperatures that allow for normal digestion or fever like immune responses.

Setting up a cage correctly is the most important thing you can do. I have seen snakes use spots over 100F but it is usually if they are sick or have large meals in them. This snake in particular has used spots of 110F this is her favorite spot it ranges from 95F-100F

Here is another snake doing the same:


They bask for much shorter periods on these shelves but again there choice not mine.

	Under Tank Heater Under Tank Heater: A commonly used method of heating a reptile enclosure.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh and to answer this..."You are right an anaconda is a boa (which is exactly my point) so why can't we keep them in the same set up?" Depending on the species of boa, you can but the word "boa" does not necessarily mean 2 different species of boa share the same exact needs. "Boas" aren't even all from the same continent. You would be hard pressed to keep an Emerald tree boa alive in a setup suitable for a Dumeril's boa for example. You also can't keep a rainbow boa in the same set up you would keep a Kenyan sand boa...That is unless you like the smell of rotten death.

It's wise to consider the words and writings of scientists. It's foolish to blindly accept every word as fact. Speaking of Emerald tree boas, It's still widely regurgitated even amongst renowned scientists that they evolved their large teeth for snatching birds from mid flight. Huh? It doesn't take a PHD to figure out what poppycock that is. It merely takes a day or two of observation and a wee bit of common sense to realize that a nocturnal animal won't have many opportunities at flying birds while it's awake and hunting. If it does, it's likely going to be prey for an owl as opposed to a predator to a parrot or something. They eat lizards mostly as babies and move on to arboreal rice rats as adults. Birds make up hardly a percent of any given emerald's diet....if that.

Bats are a boas favorite food? really? How does that work out for a mostly ground dwelling animal? Carpet pythons and Scrub pythons maybe since the flying foxes tend to be an easy snatch for them. South American boas are far more likely to encounter any of the gazillion small earth bound mammals than they are a bat. I'm sure bats are suitable meals, but ...I have a hard time believing that they are a very common food item for boas. Even when the boas do climb up in the trees, the trees down there are crawling with arboreal rice rats and nesting birds.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Varanus.nl forum / Info ? I've never been there let alone posted. If there is a JuliusSqueezer there posting, it's not me. The way you were quoting and responding while arguing with me, appears that those quotes were mine. They are not. I just want to make that clear to anyone reading.

The temperatures you are recording are surface temps. It's not the same thing as the air temp. Air temp would be a good bit lower...I hope. If not, that python's brain is toast.

[razeraze]

You can keep animals of the same locality very similar.

Bats are a common food source I have pictures of bats being consumed by RTB in books and by reticulated pythons. Birds to are a common food source:
http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?requ...%2F45-04N&ct=1
Many "nocturnal" snakes are found hunting during the day and you can not argue with stomach contents. Long teeth are great for arboreal rodents as well
Emerald Tree Boa - Part 2 Natural History

So again perhaps you should consider your scientist claims a little more seriously.

	Red Tail Boa