Natural Substrates

[faroutinmt]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

I can't keep plants alive. I tried this new fertilizer called "round up" but it didn't work either.

I like cypress mulch. I don't think you guys out west can get it but we can't get eucalyptus mulch out east here and eucalyptus is better so you win Sometimes I mix it with coconut too. The Dums love that stuff.

Nope....you're right! I have looked all over for Cypress mulch and cannot find it. I have never even heard about eucalyptus mulch. I'll have to look that one up.

Thanks!

[faroutinmt]

Originally Posted by bleeding_sarcasm

People really use eucalyptus? That surprises me since it has a pretty strong smell, I would think that it might irritate snakes, like cedar.

All I know about eucalyptus is that its supposed to be toxic to humans.

[faroutinmt]

I just ran a search on eucalyptus and some folks said not to use it, but alot of folks, including some in Oz ( where my wonderful pets are from) say their pythons love it. There were many folks who used it as opposed to just a few who opposed it.

[faroutinmt]

Originally Posted by pythonguy21

i have used cypress, eco earth, aspen, and repta bark. oh yeah and sphagnum moss.
it depends on what the needs are and what im trying to accomplish. i however am not a fan of newspaper. there was a study that was done that showed snakes left on newspaper over long periods of time become lethargic and overweight and lazy and unhappy. they have nothing to burrow, and lack the comfort. sleep on your bathroom floor the rest of your life and see how you like it. i understand large breeders using newspaper as its hard to change a ton of cages. however for the average keeper i personally feel there is no excuse to keep your animals on newspaper IMO. i think its lazy. i think if you cant afford or don't care to give your animal a proper set up then either you have to many animals or maybe you shouldn't keep them if they are a inconvenience to you.

some cases newspaper is needed, example mites. kinda hard to fights on bedding and clean the cage properly to get rid of them. but as far as thier whole life on newspaper i think its inhumane.

i love creating great cages, not only are my animals happy but they are a great display.

anyways thats just my two cents. sorry if i offend you newspaper keepers out there its just my opinion.

I have heard the same things about newspaper. But, since I've never really used it and don't have any friends who keep snakes :crying:, I have never witnessed the long term physical effects of keeping snakes on newspaper. I do know that my snakes really seem to enjoy their substrates and I really don't mind the work of maintaining it.

	IMO In My Opinion

[JuliusSqueezer]

I've never heard of any problems using eucalyptus. I've never used it myself though so I can't report any personal findings. It sure looks good...purdy red.

I did run across a problem with cypress once. A friend of mine that owns a petstore had some water pythons. One of them had a bad case of "blister disease". We pulled her out and put her on newspaper for a week and it went away, put her back and it came back right away within a couple of days. Put her back on paper...it went away again...so we switched her to aspen and it never came back. I did a little checking and found a few other people reporting that SOME Australian pythons are allergic to cypress. It's not species related...just some individuals. Some other substrates have also caused allergic reactions to other individuals so it's something to always look out for though I suspect it's pretty rare.

[bleeding_sarcasm]

I have seen problems with keeping some species of terrestrial geckos on coir. Coir is naturally very acidic, and if you can find it, it is always better to buy prewashed. I have seen it cause sores like ulcers on a geckos skin.

[ilovemylizard]

Originally Posted by pythonguy21

sleep on your bathroom floor the rest of your life and see how you like it. i understand large breeders using newspaper as its hard to change a ton of cages. however for the average keeper i personally feel there is no excuse to keep your animals on newspaper IMO. i think its lazy. i think if you cant afford or don't care to give your animal a proper set up then either you have to many animals or maybe you shouldn't keep them if they are a inconvenience to you.

some cases newspaper is needed, example mites. kinda hard to fights on bedding and clean the cage properly to get rid of them. but as far as thier whole life on newspaper i think its inhumane.

I once was a flat newspaper/butcher paper user myself...but it was always nagging me how the snakes would cram themselves in the corner with the least light, and layed oddly on the paper...they didn't seem to know what to do with themselves in all that hard flat empty space...

Sad thing is, I kept them like this because so many big names reccomended it...strongly encouraged it, even. I am so sorry I let the 'bigness' of their names overshadow common sense...:(

The first month in my new house here, my airbed died on me and I spent a very loooong and miserable 3 days sleeping on my carpet...that was enough to send me on a newspaper shredding frenzy for them...they seem to love digging in it and lay in more natural stretched out positions...

After seeing this I am not ever going back to flat paper bedding...except for quarantine...

I do want to find a better paper or natural product to shred...don't like the ink...

So thanks everyone for all the great ideas in this thread!

	IMO In My Opinion

[JuliusSqueezer]

My thoughts on newspaper, butcher paper, even cage carpet:

For some species, It's mean. For others, it's plain cruel. Most reptiles need to burrow at some point to be secure and comfortable. Arboreals don't usually, though some do from time to time but it doesn't help with humidity anyway so I can't justify it with them either. If you do get the humidity right, the paper molds and mildews pretty quickly when damp and spores are bad for the respiratory system.

It's too high maintenance. Every little water slosh, pee or defication means everything comes out of the cage to change the paper. Spot cleaning just won't work with paper.

It's TOO sterile. Because it has to be changed every time, there isn't enough bacteria left behind and none to start with like you will find in wood products. This may sound like a plus but it's not. They NEED some exposure to various germs to keep their immune system active. When a germ gets in, antibodies randomly attack until the right one connects and destroys. These antibodies have a sort of memory so the next time it comes along, it jumps right in with the correct antibody. So...too sterile of an environment will cause these antibodies to not function quick enough if and when a bad bug comes along. I'm not saying to keep a nasty cage. Feces is gross. Get it out but a little dirt in the wood chips and maybe a speck or two of feces left behind can be a very good thing for your reptile.

[TammyJ]

I admit that I have always used newspaper in my snake cages.

However, it is not just the paper, but paper (newspaper or paper towels) with hay, river stones, earth, driftwood, coconut husks/leaves or other natural material on top of it. These materials are easily available here.

I have never had a problem up to now with the snakes' health after many years of keeping them, except once when my boa Morpheus developed a RI and eventually died. I do not use sand at all.

[faroutinmt]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

My thoughts on newspaper, butcher paper, even cage carpet:

For some species, It's mean. For others, it's plain cruel. Most reptiles need to burrow at some point to be secure and comfortable. Arboreals don't usually, though some do from time to time but it doesn't help with humidity anyway so I can't justify it with them either. If you do get the humidity right, the paper molds and mildews pretty quickly when damp and spores are bad for the respiratory system.

It's too high maintenance. Every little water slosh, pee or defication means everything comes out of the cage to change the paper. Spot cleaning just won't work with paper.

It's TOO sterile. Because it has to be changed every time, there isn't enough bacteria left behind and none to start with like you will find in wood products. This may sound like a plus but it's not. They NEED some exposure to various germs to keep their immune system active. When a germ gets in, antibodies randomly attack until the right one connects and destroys. These antibodies have a sort of memory so the next time it comes along, it jumps right in with the correct antibody. So...too sterile of an environment will cause these antibodies to not function quick enough if and when a bad bug comes along. I'm not saying to keep a nasty cage. Feces is gross. Get it out but a little dirt in the wood chips and maybe a speck or two of feces left behind can be a very good thing for your reptile.

Those are some interesting thoughts there. I remember hearing someone pondering the possible causes of all the new sicknesses these days and the conclusion they came up with was that kids don't play in the dirt enough anymore. Whether this has any validity at all is yet to be seen but I do know that bacteria and germs can be beneficial to immune boosting to some degree.

And...now that I think about it...using natural substrate is actually much less maintenance than newspaper or turf, since your not breaking down the cage every time messes are made. I have hides and large branches in my enclosures and my snakes use every bit of them. I think my kingsnake would go crazy if he didn't have something to burrow in (sort of like a labrador retriever without something to retrieve.)